Health Care Rationing in Federal Bill

[QUOTE=Bill Peckham;17207]Seriously. Daschel withdrew his nomination weeks ago and President Obama has talked about why this is important, why it is an economic issue and why each piece is tied to the larger puzzle.

So long as you continue to refer to the President in a way meant to equate to communism you are not being serious or productive. This is not the right forum for partisan polemics and spittle enhanced ranting. Go away.[/QUOTE]

Yes, Daschle withdrew his nomination because he did not pay his taxes. When you had your comments about Republicans, you were being partisan. Where is the famous tolerance and bipartisanship of your party? I agree with electronic records, what I do not agree with is volations of privacy. I never said that Obama is a communist, however, many of his ideas are socialist. I will not go away. I have just as much right to post my opinon as you do to post your opinion. I would be happy to debate you, any time, any place, of your choosing. It is only partisan because you do not agree with it. I will not be shouted down.

[QUOTE=NDXUFan12;17199]"Well, the gold standard in medicine is the controlled clinical trial. We don’t go subjecting 100,000 people to a surgical procedure without doing a controlled clinical trial or dozens of clinical trials, and then looking at the results. Do you know how many clinical trials have been published on weight-loss surgery or gastric bypass? Zero. None of them have compared it to clinical conservative treatment and found it to be superior for life expectancy or for anything else other than, you know, risk factors. A number of trials have been started, and the final results have never been reported. We have to ask, you know, why haven’t we seen the final results? I think it’s because it’s bad news. "
(Paul Ernsberger on Donahue, 2002)[/QUOTE]

This post is pretty off-topic for home dialysis. It’s also quite a bit out of date. Seven years later, studies have been done. When I put “bariatric surgery outcomes” into PubMed, 2187 studies come up–88 of them randomized controlled trials, and 17 of them meta-analyses (studies of studies). It takes time for a new surgery to be used enough to need to be studied, to write research protocols, to recruit patients for pilot studies, to get a large, multicenter trial funded, and then to conduct and analyze it.

That said, randomized controlled trials (RCTs) may be the “gold standard” to some folks, but most medicine–especially most dialysis–has never been the subject of them. Areas of healthcare where more people are affected, like heart disease, have hundreds or even thousands of RCTs. Dialysis, which affects a much smaller number (thought it’s very costly) may have only dozens. Three times a week “standard” HD was never tested with RCTs comparing it to longer or more frequent treatment. There is a pair of NIH studies going on now that is trying to do that, but the study is too small to look at survival. There are other ways, like large observational studies (DOPPS, for example) to look at outcomes that can be just as useful as RCTs. It was observational data that led to the conclusion that smoking causes cancer. You could never randomly assign people to smoke or not smoke and then follow them for 40 years to see what happened to them.

Or, as one of my favorite nephrologist experts likes to point out, there has never been a randomized controlled trial of whether parachutes are helpful when you jump out of an airplane. Sometimes common sense is enough–like more physiologic dialysis is better than 3x/week.

Hi Mark,

First of all, I think the current global economic meltdown has shown pretty clearly that there are no “laws of economics” as some folks have chosen to interpret them. Adam Smith was not a God, and he wasn’t anti-regulation. Here’s a quote (my emphasis) from this site: http://www.adamsmithslostlegacy.com/2008/05/adam-smiths-advice-on-banking.html:

[i]"“To restrain private people, it may be said, from receiving in payment the promissory notes of a banker, for any sum whether great or small, when they themselves are willing to receive them; or, to restrain a banker from issuing such notes, when all his neighbours are willing to accept of them, is a manifest violation of that natural liberty which it is the proper business of law, not to infringe, but to support.

“Such regulations may, no doubt, be considered as in some respects a violation of natural liberty. But those exertions of the natural liberty of a few individuals, which might endanger the security of the whole society, are, and ought to be, restrained by the laws of all governments; of the most free, as well as of the most despotical. The obligation of building party walls, in order to prevent the communication of fire, is a violation of natural liberty, exactly of the same kind with the regulations of the banking trade which are here proposed.” [Original punctuation restored, GK][/i]

…If you want to know why health insurance is so expensive, look at all of the government mandates for health insurance, imposed by your friends, the Democrats. You must cover this, that, and every other thing. Guess what, that jacks up the premiums to kill any affordable level of insurance coverage for the average family.

To the extent that we don’t regulate health insurance companies with regard to what they must cover, they will weasel out of covering anything. How do you make money as a health insurance company? By taking in lots of premiums and paying out as little as possible as benefits. The less you cover, the more you make. There’s a reason for the fine print–to help their profit margins. Requiring them to cover certain things–and certain people–also helps cut down on cherry-picking. Don’t mind cherry-picking? I wonder how you get by on dialysis, then, since, given a choice no insurer would voluntarily ante up for something so costly–they would happily bypass you and insure only those “average families” you refer to.

[QUOTE=Dori Schatell;17212]Hi Mark,

First of all, I think the current global economic meltdown has shown pretty clearly that there are no “laws of economics” as some folks have chosen to interpret them. Adam Smith was not a God, and he wasn’t anti-regulation. Here’s a quote (my emphasis) from this site: http://www.adamsmithslostlegacy.com/2008/05/adam-smiths-advice-on-banking.html:

[i]"“To restrain private people, it may be said, from receiving in payment the promissory notes of a banker, for any sum whether great or small, when they themselves are willing to receive them; or, to restrain a banker from issuing such notes, when all his neighbours are willing to accept of them, is a manifest violation of that natural liberty which it is the proper business of law, not to infringe, but to support.

“Such regulations may, no doubt, be considered as in some respects a violation of natural liberty. But those exertions of the natural liberty of a few individuals, which might endanger the security of the whole society, are, and ought to be, restrained by the laws of all governments; of the most free, as well as of the most despotical. The obligation of building party walls, in order to prevent the communication of fire, is a violation of natural liberty, exactly of the same kind with the regulations of the banking trade which are here proposed.” [Original punctuation restored, GK][/i]

To the extent that we don’t regulate health insurance companies with regard to what they must cover, they will weasel out of covering anything. How do you make money as a health insurance company? By taking in lots of premiums and paying out as little as possible as benefits. The less you cover, the more you make. There’s a reason for the fine print–to help their profit margins. Requiring them to cover certain things–and certain people–also helps cut down on cherry-picking. Don’t mind cherry-picking? I wonder how you get by on dialysis, then, since, given a choice no insurer would voluntarily ante up for something so costly–they would happily bypass you and insure only those “average families” you refer to.[/QUOTE]

LOL, I never said that Adam Smith was a God. My point is that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. In fact, in Adam Smith’s esssays, he did not have anything positive to say about the business community. My question is the cost of regulation worth the benefit being received by the public? Is the cost of Epogen worth $600.00 per each and every bottle, because of regulation? What I propose is voluntary regulation. For example, in electronic products, individuals will not buy them unless they have the UL(Underwriters Lab) label on the specific product. We could move towards that type of a system, where if the lab is not on the bottle, physicians will not prescribe it and patients will not buy it. It is estimated that the cost of medication would decline by 85% if we abolished regulation. It is amazing the moral smugness of people who are not paying the cost of this procedure in dialysis or kidney transplants. If we allowed the selling of kidney transplants, we would greatly reduce the costs of this disease. I hear so many arguements about “choice?” If I want to sell my kidney to Jack Smith living down the street, that should be my choice, does the kidney belong to me or the government? The same people that scream about choice in abortion, are the same people that want to deny that choice in kidney disease, namely, the author of that legislation, Former Vice President Gore in 1984. It is easy to have a moral arrogrance when you are not suffering from this disease.

Why do they believe that they do not have more kidney donors, because the price of that procedure for the donor is ZERO. How many cars, houses, boats or other material goods do you believe you would receive for Zero? If you answered Zero, you would be correct. It is unreal that the medical community whines and bellyaches about people being paid for kidney donations, yet, the medical community is making a huge profit from kidney transplants. Everyone in the medical community is being enriched while the donor is getting a fat zero, more hypocrisy.

Yes, the law does prevent an individual from yelling fire in a crowded theatre. Yes, the government is allowed to obtain warrants to listen in on the conversation of terrorists, who wish to kill each and every American. Quite honestly, I dislike insurance companies. I would argue that high deductible plans would be the way to go. I would have the individual play the first $1,000.00 of any medical bills, after that, it would be covered 100% by the insurance company. In fact, most Americans, one half of one percent ever come close to paying that amount of money for their health care, each and every year. Honestly, do you call your auto insurer, each and every time, you have a flat tire? Of course not. A high deductible plan would benefit the Americans that are truly ill and leave large amounts of money to care for the sick. Having a high deductible plan scheme, would force medical costs to decline. In other words, you cannot bill, if the average citizen cannot pay or afford the bill. I hear people talk about “Affordable health care.” Ok, at what price point does health care become “affordable?” Zero? $5.00, $10.99, $100.00?

When you look at the cost of consumer goods, people bid on what will be produced in our society. Milk, Cheese, Ice Cream, etc. The highest bidder gets their goods produced by business, the same thing happens in the job market. The highest bidder gets the most talented individuals as in medicine, chemistry, physics, and other fields. What physician do you believe will pursue years of hard work and training without a sizeable income to pay for that training and years of hard work at a low salary? This is the reason there are shortages in certain medical fields, such as primary care.

The banking crisis came about because the Clinton administration believed that they knew more about lending money for housing than the banks. They threatened the banks with lawsuits if they did not lend money to individuals who could not repay the loans. Yet, if we look at loan rates and we adjust for income, credit scores, asset levels, etc, we see that the loan rates for African-Americans and Whites is only 3 percent.

Another example of “common sense.” We have been told time and again about the legend of slavery. While slavery is a horrible, horrible institution and morally incorrect, more people died coming to the United States from the potato famine in Ireland than died coming from Africa to America as slaves. England was the first nation to abolish slavery, followed by the United States. Yet, how many times do we hear these previous facts in the media? The words of Booker T. Washington:

“No greater injury can be done to any youth than to let him feel that because he belongs to this or that race he will be advanced in life regardless of his own merits or efforts.”

Mark

Do you suggest that insurance companies become Ponzi schemes like the Government and Social Security? If Medicare covered the cost of Nocturnal Dialysis, costs to the taxpayers would be greatly reduced, with 6 treatments per week.

I think you’re laboring over a misconception here, Mark. EPOGEN isn’t priced at $600/bottle (if that’s what it costs–I haven’t checked) because of regulation. It’s priced that way to pay for the hundreds of millions of dollars it cost to develop up front, the hundreds of millions they spend in promoting it (one wonders why, since it pretty much has a monopoly–at this point, only Amgen’s own Aranesp competes with it), the hundreds of millions they spend defending it against patent and other lawsuits, and, most importantly, because that’s the price Amgen negotiated with the US Govt (the primary payer) in 1989 when the drug came out. Regulation is very, very little of that.

What I propose is voluntary regulation. For example, in electronic products, individuals will not buy them unless they have the UL(Underwriters Lab) label on the specific product. We could move towards that type of a system, where if the lab is not on the bottle, physicians will not prescribe it and patients will not buy it.

So, only knowledgeable consumers deserve protection against fraud, poisoning, etc.? Seems a little harsh to me. Think of how many different information channels there are these days. Doctors can’t possibly keep up with everything new–even “here’s the voluntary regulation.” And, if it costs more, they might well NOT prescribe something, and leave people open to severe harm. IMHO, bad idea.

It is estimated that the cost of medication would decline by 85% if we abolished regulation.

It is estimated by whom? Where’s your source? It’s not fair to our visitors to throw around “facts” like this with no credible evidence.

It is amazing the moral smugness of people who are not paying the cost of this procedure in dialysis or kidney transplants.

Are you paying 100% of your dialysis costs? Because 93% or so of folks on dialysis are getting Medicare. Which means, as a taxpayer, I’m paying for it! Personally, I’d like to see my tax dollars go to support a treatment that allows people to feel their best, live as long as possible, and stay productive, tax paying citizens–meaning home dialysis.

If we allowed the selling of kidney transplants, we would greatly reduce the costs of this disease. I hear so many arguements about “choice?” If I want to sell my kidney to Jack Smith living down the street, that should be my choice, does the kidney belong to me or the government?

I don’t necessarily disagree with you that the US should consider incentives for donors, but this topic belongs in a separate thread. It has a lot of pros and cons of its own.

I would argue that high deductible plans would be the way to go. I would have the individual play the first $1,000.00 of any medical bills, after that, it would be covered 100% by the insurance company.

This is a nice thought, but terribly, terribly naive. In-center hemodialysis alone (which 92% of US people on dialysis use) costs Medicare $75K per person/per year United States Renal Data System - USRDS - NIDDK. About 1 in 1000 people in the US is on dialysis. Millions more have cancer, trauma, or other health problems that cost upwards of $50K, $100K, $200k/year. The numbers simply don’t work.

In fact, most Americans, one half of one percent ever come close to paying that amount of money for their health care, each and every year.

Source? You need to prove these numbers if you want any of us to believe them.

Having a high deductible plan scheme, would force medical costs to decline. In other words, you cannot bill, if the average citizen cannot pay or afford the bill.

Baloney. The “average citizen” couldn’t afford health insurance before the global economic meltdown–an estimated 40+ million were uninsured, and a Harvard University study (quoted here–along with a ton of other useful facts: http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml) found that health costs were a factor in 50% of US bankruptcies. If the average citizen can’t afford to pay, the average citizen will go without care, forgo preventive care and get complications, or show up at costly emergency rooms for treatment.

What physician do you believe will pursue years of hard work and training without a sizeable income to pay for that training and years of hard work at a low salary? This is the reason there are shortages in certain medical fields, such as primary care.

In other countries where would-be doctors don’t have to rack up more than $100K of student loan debt before they graduate, they don’t have to earn inflated salaries to have an excellent quality of life.

The banking crisis came about because the Clinton administration believed that they knew more about lending money for housing than the banks. They threatened the banks with lawsuits if they did not lend money to individuals who could not repay the loans. Yet, if we look at loan rates and we adjust for income, credit scores, asset levels, etc, we see that the loan rates for African-Americans and Whites is only 3 percent.

This is completely irrelevant to anything in this thread. Please stick to comments that relate to healthcare in general and home dialysis in particular.

Hi Folks

The cost of everything has gone up… Anyone recall the cost of a hammer & toilet seat paid by DOD and the outcry. I worked in the area of DOD making parts for missiles systems. The reason the cost of everything going up up is paper work. It is same in every area of life. People want more pay , CEO want more etc. The Fed. wants a paper trail to see where everything comes from, why say , the missiles I made a part for start falling out the sky or failing. The DOD needs to be able to trace back to where every part of the missiles came from and who touch them. Take the peanut butter story, it was paper work that led back to where ,who what etc. What we need now is to transfer as much as possible to computers. I know they are risk but it is the price we paid living today. I think I had said before we can’t look back we need to more ahead. I love the new highways when no one is on them hate when traffic is backed up for miles.

I’m political junkie. I spend as much time as I can watching CSpan 1,2.3, PBS, ,the Weekly Standard, NYTimes, etc. and have for yrs. I love the going on’s of system.
Here a a story from the times that gives a snap shot into how the dealing are in DC and every state capital .
The story is about Senator Arlen Specter, my senator,.who over the last 8 yrs. I did not agree with his stand on a # of issues. But then he turns and works hard on this issue which I hope and think will bring better healthcare down the road.

The story is not long http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/14/health/policy/14specter.html

thanks
Robert O’Brien

[QUOTE=Dori Schatell;17215]I think you’re laboring over a misconception here, Mark. EPOGEN isn’t priced at $600/bottle (if that’s what it costs–I haven’t checked) because of regulation. It’s priced that way to pay for the hundreds of millions of dollars it cost to develop up front, the hundreds of millions they spend in promoting it (one wonders why, since it pretty much has a monopoly–at this point, only Amgen’s own Aranesp competes with it), the hundreds of millions they spend defending it against patent and other lawsuits, and, most importantly, because that’s the price Amgen negotiated with the US Govt (the primary payer) in 1989 when the drug came out. Regulation is very, very little of that.

So, only knowledgeable consumers deserve protection against fraud, poisoning, etc.? Seems a little harsh to me. Think of how many different information channels there are these days. Doctors can’t possibly keep up with everything new–even “here’s the voluntary regulation.” And, if it costs more, they might well NOT prescribe something, and leave people open to severe harm. IMHO, bad idea.

It is estimated by whom? Where’s your source? It’s not fair to our visitors to throw around “facts” like this with no credible evidence.

Are you paying 100% of your dialysis costs? Because 93% or so of folks on dialysis are getting Medicare. Which means, as a taxpayer, I’m paying for it! Personally, I’d like to see my tax dollars go to support a treatment that allows people to feel their best, live as long as possible, and stay productive, tax paying citizens–meaning home dialysis.

I don’t necessarily disagree with you that the US should consider incentives for donors, but this topic belongs in a separate thread. It has a lot of pros and cons of its own.

This is a nice thought, but terribly, terribly naive. In-center hemodialysis alone (which 92% of US people on dialysis use) costs Medicare $75K per person/per year http://www.usrds.org/2008/view/esrd_11.asp. About 1 in 1000 people in the US is on dialysis. Millions more have cancer, trauma, or other health problems that cost upwards of $50K, $100K, $200k/year. The numbers simply don’t work.

Source? You need to prove these numbers if you want any of us to believe them.

Baloney. The “average citizen” couldn’t afford health insurance before the global economic meltdown–an estimated 40+ million were uninsured, and a Harvard University study (quoted here–along with a ton of other useful facts: http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml) found that health costs were a factor in 50% of US bankruptcies. If the average citizen can’t afford to pay, the average citizen will go without care, forgo preventive care and get complications, or show up at costly emergency rooms for treatment.

In other countries where would-be doctors don’t have to rack up more than $100K of student loan debt before they graduate, they don’t have to earn inflated salaries to have an excellent quality of life.

This is completely irrelevant to anything in this thread. Please stick to comments that relate to healthcare in general and home dialysis in particular.[/QUOTE]

I was told at the dialysis clinic that Epogen costs $600 per bottle. The nasty truth is that the drug companies spend more money on marketing than research(Dr. Jerome Kassirer, “On The Take.”) In addition, the vast majority of drug reps do not have any scientific background(Dr. Jerome Kassirer, “On The Take.”) Cholesterol drugs do not expand or prolong life(Dr. Jerome Kassirer and Professor Emeritus of Organic Chemistry, Joel Kauffman, Ph.D., M.I.T.) Professor Kauffman has 14 drug patents and 100 peer-reviewed publications. I posted a paper you will find interesting.


Mary Ruwart, B.S., BioChemistry, Ph.D. Biophysics, Former Research Scientist for UpJohn and Assistant Professor of Surgery:

Regulations passed in 1962 are responsible for over 80% of todays drug prices" says research scientist Dr. Mary J. Ruwart, Senior Instructor with Sci-Com, Burnet, TX and Adjunct Associate Professor of Biology at the University of North Carolina in Charlotte. In her November 8th presentation at the 2004 Annual Meeting of the American Association of Pharmaceutical Sciences, Dr. Ruwart presented data suggesting that these regulations have caused the premature deaths of millions of people by slowing development of life-saving medications and thwarting innovation.

Development times, about 4-1/2 years long, were stable for the two decades prior to the 1962 Kefauver-Harris Amendments. Since then, development times have soared. By the 1990s, the average drug spent over 14 years in regulation-mandated testing and FDA review.

R&D outlays have increased somewhat more rapidly than development times, as manufacturers try to com-press time lines to preserve patent life. What we spend for prescription drugs can be predicted by what manufacturers spend on R&D," Dr. Ruwart explains. If pre-amendment trends had continued, drug prices would be about 15% of what they are today. Wed have more innovation and twice as many drugs to choose from. Pharmaceuticals replace more expensive medical interventions like surgery, so that every dollar we spend on drugs lowers health care costs by $2-$3."

Do we need more pharmaceuticals when so many are me-too" drugs? Excess regulation discourages inno-vation and encourages copy-cats by forcing manufacturers to shift R&D spending from research to develop-ment," Dr. Ruwart points out. Wed reverse this trend, at least in part, by eliminating excess regulation."

But dont regulations protect Americans from unsafe drugs? These particular regulations, the 1962 amend-ments, have proven to be more deadly than all of the drug toxicity that occurred before their passage," Dr. Ruwart claims. She estimates that between 1963 and 1999, 4.7 million people died prematurely while the medicine which could have saved them languished in mandated testing. The amendments saved a few thousand lives, but the cost was letting millions die waiting for treatment. Thats why the amendments are 'excess regulation," Dr. Ruwart explains.

Should those upset about high pharmaceutical prices and development delays blame the FDA? Dr. Ruwart doesnt think so. The FDA was told to enforce bad law," she points out. The good people there, some of whom Ive worked with, were put in a very difficult situation."

Before we are regulators, legislators, members of the pharmaceutical industry, or cost-conscious consumers, we are all human beings who will one day need a life-saving medication or medical procedure," Dr. Ruwart contends. For all of our sakes, the national debate on high pharmaceutical prices and affordable health care should include a thorough examination of the costs of excess regulation."

CONTACT INFORMATION:
Mary J. Ruwart, Ph.D.
Phone/fax: 1-888-570-5786
Full presentation: http://www.ruwart.com/AAPS.pdf

Would you like even more information from the New York Times Almanac?

As long as there is the possibility for suing pharma companies when drugs approved by the FDA turn out to harm people, the drug companies will be just as cautious about introducing new products. Perhaps you don’t remember Thalidomide–a drug approved in Europe for sleeping problems and morning sickness in pregnant women. It caused a suspicious tingling in the hands that led to one FDA worker (Frances Kelsey) to refuse to allow it in the US without additional study. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide). Turns out she made a good good call: Thalidomide caused thousands of heartbreaking birth defects around the world (called phocomelia–shortened limbs due to missing long bones).

This website lists current drug recalls in the US all of drugs that were approved by the FDAhttp://www.drugrecalls.com/[/b]. They include:
Avandia - a diabetes drug that increases the risk of heart failure and now carries a Black Box warning
Antidepressants - which increase the risk of suicide in adolescents
– [b]Crestor[/] & Baycol - statins linked with a complication that can cause kidney failure and heart attacks
Zelnorm - an irritable bowel disease drug that caused heart attacks and strokes
Meridia - a weight loss pill linked so far to 16 deaths from cardiovascular problems
Prempro - hormone replacement therapy that increased the risk of heart attacks, strokes, breast cancer…
– [b]Celebrex[b], Vioxx, & Bextra Cox-2 inhibitors (pain pills) that caused 2-4x the risk of heart attack, stroke, and other cardiovascular problems
Rezulin - a diabetes drug that causes liver damage

My money’s on the FDA regulatory process every time. “Compassionate use” and participation in study trials can allow people who need a new, not-yet-approved drug right now to treat an urgent medical problem without endangering everyone else. Even with all of the regulations and hoops new drugs have to go through, there are still risks that may not appear until larger numbers of people use them. Scaling back these regulations won’t reduce the costs of healthcare–the lawsuits will keep them right where they are.

[QUOTE=Bill Peckham;17202]Misinformation On Health Information Technology

      Posted by [James O'Rourke](http://jimorourke.wordpress.com/2008/02/) on February 11, 2009

Late last month, the House passed an economic recovery package containing $20 billion for health information technology, which would require the Department of Health and Human Services to develop standards by 2010 for a nationwide system to exchange health data electronically. The version of the recovery package passed by the Senate yesterday contains slightly less funding for health information technology (”health IT”). But as Congress moves to reconcile the two stimulus packages, conservatives have begun attacking the health IT provisions, falsely claiming that they would lead to the government “telling the doctors what they can’t and cannot treat, and on whom they can and cannot treat.” The conservative misinformation campaign began on Monday with a Bloomberg “commentary” by Hudson Institute fellow Betsy McCaughey, which claimed that the legislation will have the government “monitor treatments” in order to “‘guide’ your doctor’s decisions.” McCaughey’s imaginative misreading was quickly trumpeted by Rush Limbaugh and the Drudge Report, eventually ending up on Fox News, where McCaughey’s opinion column was described as ”a report.” In one of the many Fox segments focused on the column, hosts Megyn Kelly and Bill Hemmer blindsided Sens. Arlen Specter (R-PA) and Jon Tester (D-MT) with McCaughey’s false interpretation, causing them to promise that they would “get this provision clarified.” On his radio show yesterday, Limbaugh credited himself for injecting the false story into the stimulus debate, saying that he “detailed it and now it’s all over mainstream media.” [/QUOTE]
Wow. Just…wow. This is an astonishing post, Bill–it must have taken you forever to pull all of this information together. I’m always blown away by your incredible knowledge of what’s going on politically and how it affects people with kidney disease. IMHO, the Feds should hire you to work on dialysis issues! :smiley:

Yes, I have read about Thalidomide being used in Europe. To be honest, having listened to a number of hard scientists, not really impressed with the FDA. It is easy to exception an arugement to death with one drug, one case study or one of any of a selected subject. The medical community needs more training in Statistics. For example, your chance of having a heart attack, whether you do or do not take Liptor, regardless of health condition, is only 0.2% per year, absolute risk, (Professor Kauffman) I know this to be true because my Dad(Chemist) read the math, along with my brother who has a Ph.D. in Physics/Materials Science(Northwestern). My brother said that the scientific evidence does NOT validate the cholesterol theory. If you would like to read about many scientists who disagree with the cholesterol theory: http://www.thincs.org/members.htm. In looking for whether or not, a medical treatment is a good idea, we want to look at a term called absolute risk, not relative risk, and Numbers Needed to Treat(NNT).

If a study is put in terms of relative risk, we know that the study is pretty much mathematically worthless(Professor Kauffman). Another example of financial conflicts of interest:

Dr. Jerome Kassirer:

“On the question of obesity, physicians have been extensively involved with the pharmaceutical industry, especially opinion leaders and in the high ranks of academia. The involvement was in many instances quite deep. It involved consulting, service on speaker’s bureaus, and service on advisory boards. And at the same time some of these financially conflicted individuals were producing biased obesity materials, biased obesity lectures, and biased obesity articles in major journals.”

http://www.obesitymyths.com/downloads/obesityMyths.pdf

In Dec, 2006 in the Lancet, the Mayo Clinic study came to the conclusion that overweight individuals were not anymore likely to suffer cardiovascular disease than the general population.

Mark Moulliet

While thousands
of people die
each year from
lack of kidney
dialysis, the NHS(England’s National Health Service)
provides an array
of comforts for
chronically ill
people with less
serious health
problems

Excellent paper by John Goodman

The UK does do dialysis, and I don’t believe they’ve rationed it for many years. Maybe some of our UK folks can fill us in on that.

Meanwhile, here’s an article from today’s New York Times about something potentially GOOD the stimulus package is supposed to do: compare treatments for various illnesses.

Hmm. How about a well-structured comparison of longer/more frequent dialysis vs. standard in-center HD? Contact your Representative!. (You can find your Congressperson here: https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml and your Senator here: http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm.

U.S. to Compare Medical Treatments
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By ROBERT PEAR
Published: February 15, 2009
WASHINGTON — The $787 billion economic stimulus bill approved by Congress will, for the first time, provide substantial amounts of money for the federal government to compare the effectiveness of different treatments for the same illness.

Under the legislation, researchers will receive $1.1 billion to compare drugs, medical devices, surgery and other ways of treating specific conditions. The bill creates a council of up to 15 federal employees to coordinate the research and to advise President Obama and Congress on how to spend the money.

The program responds to a growing concern that doctors have little or no solid evidence of the value of many treatments. Supporters of the research hope it will eventually save money by discouraging the use of costly, ineffective treatments.

The soaring cost of health care is widely seen as a problem for the economy. Spending on health care totaled $2.2 trillion, or 16 percent of the nation’s gross domestic product, in 2007, and the Congressional Budget Office estimates that, without any changes in federal law, it will rise to 25 percent of the G.D.P. in 2025.

Dr. Elliott S. Fisher of Dartmouth Medical School said the federal effort would help researchers try to answer questions like these:

Is it better to treat severe neck pain with surgery or a combination of physical therapy, exercise and medications? What is the best combination of “talk therapy” and prescription drugs to treat mild depression?

How do drugs and “watchful waiting” compare with surgery as a treatment for leg pain that results from blockage of the arteries in the lower legs? Is it better to treat chronic heart failure by medications alone or by drugs and home monitoring of a patient’s blood pressure and weight?

For nearly a decade, economists and health policy experts have been debating the merits of research that directly tackles such questions. Britain, France and other countries have bodies that assess health technologies and compare the effectiveness, and sometimes the cost, of different treatments.

Hillary Rodham Clinton, as a senator, was an early champion of “comparative effectiveness research.” Mr. Obama, who is expected to sign the stimulus bill Tuesday, endorsed the idea in his campaign for the White House.

As Congress translated the idea into legislation, it became a lightning rod for pharmaceutical and medical-device lobbyists, who fear the findings will be used by insurers or the government to deny coverage for more expensive treatments and, thus, to ration care.

In addition, Republican lawmakers and conservative commentators complained that the legislation would allow the federal government to intrude in a person’s health care by enforcing clinical guidelines and treatment protocols.

The money will be immediately available to the Health and Human Services Department but can be spent over several years. Some money will be used for systematic reviews of published scientific studies, and some will be used for clinical trials making head-to-head comparisons of different treatments.

For many years, the government has regulated drugs and devices and supported biomedical research, but the goal was usually to establish if a particular treatment was safe and effective, not if it was better than the alternatives.

Consumer groups, labor unions, large employers and pharmacy benefit managers supported the new initiative, saying it would fill gaps in the evidence available to doctors and patients.

“The new research will eventually save money and lives,” said Representative Pete Stark, Democrat of California.

The United States spends more than $2 trillion a year on health care, but “we have little information about which treatments work best for which patients,” said Mr. Stark, who is the chairman of the Ways and Means Subcommittee on Health.

In the absence of information on what works, Mr. Stark said, patients are put at risk, and billions of dollars are spent each year on ineffective or unnecessary treatments.

Steven D. Findlay, a health policy analyst at Consumers Union, said the action by Congress was “a terrific step on the road to improving the quality of care and making it more efficient.”

But critics say the legislation could put the government in the middle of the doctor-patient relationship.

Bureaucrats “will monitor treatments to make sure your doctor is doing what the federal government deems appropriate and cost-effective,” Betsy McCaughey, a former lieutenant governor of New York, wrote on Bloomberg.com. Rush Limbaugh broadcast the charges to millions who listen to his radio talk show.

Lawmakers and lobbyists agree that researchers should compare the clinical merits of different treatments. Whether they should also consider cost is hotly debated.

Representative Charles Boustany Jr., a Louisiana Republican who is a heart surgeon, said he worried that “federal bureaucrats will misuse this research to ration care, to deny life-saving treatments to seniors and disabled people.”

The House Appropriations Committee inadvertently stoked such concerns in a report accompanying its version of the economic recovery bill. It said that research comparing different treatments could “yield significant payoffs” because less effective, more expensive treatments “will no longer be prescribed.”

A similar proposal was included in a recent book by Tom Daschle, who had been Mr. Obama’s nominee for health secretary, and Jeanne M. Lambrew, who is the deputy director of the Office of Health Reform in the Obama White House.

Women and members of minority groups expressed concern about that approach. Drugs and other treatments can affect different patients in different ways, they said, but researchers often overlook the differences because their studies do not include enough women, blacks or Hispanics.

“Some drugs appear to be more effective in women than in men, while other medicines are more likely to cause serious complications in women,” said Phyllis E. Greenberger, the president of the Society for Women’s Health Research. “It’s important to look for these sex-based differences.”

In a letter to House leaders, the Congressional Black Caucus said, “We are concerned that comparative effectiveness research will be based on broad population averages that ignore the differences between patients.”

House and Senate negotiators tried to address these concerns. The final bill says that the research financed by the federal government shall include women and members of minority groups.

Moreover, in a report filed with the bill, the negotiators said they did not intend for the research money to be used to “mandate coverage, reimbursement or other policies for any public or private payer.”

Congress did not say exactly how the findings should be used. Private insurers can use the data in deciding whether to cover new drugs and medical procedures, but it is unclear how Medicare will use the information.

Under existing law, Medicare generally covers any treatment that is “reasonable and necessary for the diagnosis or treatment of illness or injury,” and the agency does not have clear legal authority to take costs into account when deciding whether to cover a particular treatment.

Andrew Witty, the chief executive of the pharmaceutical company GlaxoSmithKline, said European officials often considered the costs as well as the clinical benefits of new drugs — with mixed results.

“Comparative effectiveness is a useful tool in the tool kit, but it’s not the answer to anything,” Mr. Witty said in an interview. “Other countries have fallen in love with the concept, then spent years figuring out how on earth to make it work.”

Dori: you say

We’ve had a “free market” healthcare system for decades in the US, NDXUFan12, and it’s led to some of the worst healthcare outcomes in the world–at the highest cost. Here’s a link to the World Health Organization’s rating of healthcare systems (Hint: the U.S. is #37)

Have you read the WHO report? Just in case you haven’t there is some interesting data in there.

On the Responsiveness factor the US is #1 compared with the UK at 26/27 (tied with Qatar)

On the Disability adjusted life expectancy the US is #24 at 70.0 compared to the UK at 14 (71.7)

They have a subscale of “distribution” which measures the inequality between life expectancies between men and women. The US is marked down on this…but honestly it doesn’t make much sense to me, I’m not sure that’s a measure of the healthcare system.

OK, now here’s where we really get marked down: Fairness in Financial Contribution. We are only 54th. Way below those well-know healthcare mavens as Saudi Arabia, Micronesia and Tanzania.

And combine all these scores and you get 37.

The fairness score is simply the percent people pay for heathcare as a function of income/wealth. Kinda like a gini index. So basically, the WHO has an opinion on how healthcare should be paid for. Progressive financial contributions by the citizens.

We can agree or disagree with that, but it is a circular argument to use the WHO report to criticize the US. They don’t like the means by which we finance healthcare, so they give us a bad score.

They also talk about cost effectiveness.

“A health system should strive for both horizontal and vertical equity – treating alike
all those who face the same health need, and treating preferentially those with the greatest
needs – to be consistent with the goal of reducing health inequalities.”

Roughly translated this means that if there is anyone that can not afford slow nocturnal dialysis, then no one can.

They also have a section entitled “ENFORCING PRIORITIES BY RATIONING CARE” in which they outline their favorite.

There are a lot of people in the US that want single-payer. Since this is a Kidney site for home dialysis, I assume that you think that kidney patients will fare well under such a system.

I would ask: What percent of in-center payments have been made by Medicare/Medicaid? What is has the real reimbursement rates for in-center been over the last 20 years? What is the mortality rates compared to other countries?

In an environment where the kidney patient is competing with people who want houses or free college educations, etc. do you think that alternatives such as nocturnal hemo will be allowed?

Hi Folks

Has any survey been taken with just young DR’s.? I guess Dr’s under 50? In listening to some of the Dr’s and nurses, It comes down to age in which type of system they would to see in place here. I hear that there are pros and cons to all the systems. The Dr’s like the idea of the school for them taken care(state, fed) of, that is where the big $ for shakes out. I see a combo of plans in place in yrs down the road. The great thing about a country like ours ( Western Europe, Japan). The people have a say, it just a matter of the people getting mad and making change. The idea of a man of color sitting in the white house, to any # of people may of been a something another 20 plus yrs down the road.

Bob O’Brien

That may be, Unregistered, but the fact remains that in life expectancy and infant mortality, US outcomes are dismal–and heartbreaking. If you think the WHO is too politically motivated to be a good a source, how about our own Central Intelligence Agency? Here’s a list from the CIA on Wikipedia. US overall life expectancy at birth is 78.06, ranking 45th globally–lower than Bosnia. List of countries by life expectancy - Wikipedia.

Out of 222 countries, the US does worse than 41 of them on infant deaths per 1000 live births–including the Czech Republic, Slovenia, South Korea, Taiwan, and Cuba. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html.

Roughly translated this means that if there is anyone that can not afford slow nocturnal dialysis, then no one can.

You are making the fundamental assumption that slow nocturnal HD costs more than standard in-center care. In fact, it costs less–and it leads to more quality-adjusted life years when you include the total costs of care (medications, hospitalization, staffing, supplies…) http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/539006.

Medicare as a system has a fatal flaw: the “wall” between Part A (hospitalization) and Part B (outpatient care, including dialysis). Because Part A savings cannot be credited to Part B care, the cost incentives are misaligned. Basically, we have constructed a system of payment that has made it easy to push 92% of US dialyzors into the most unphysiologic care we have to offer at the highest possible cost.

There are a lot of people in the US that want single-payer. Since this is a Kidney site for home dialysis, I assume that you think that kidney patients will fare well under such a system. I would ask:
– What percent of in-center payments have been made by Medicare/Medicaid?

This information is easily accessed in the United States Renal Data System (USRDS) Annual Data Report (ADR). The most recent one is 2008, containing 2006 data. In the Precis, it lists these costs:
Medicare spending for ESRD, 2006 (billions of dollars)
SAF paid claims (Part A & B) 20.35
2% incurred but not reported 0.41
HMO-Medicare risk 1.69
Organ acquisition 0.27
Total Medicare costs 22.72
Non-Medicare spending, 2006 (billions of dollars
EGHP (MSP) 2.41
Patient obligations 4.22
Non-Medicare patients 4.26
Total non-Medicare costs 10.89
Change in Medicare spending, 2005 to 2006
Total 3.3
Per patient year 1.8
Adjusted for inflation -1.5% to 2.3%
Medicare spending per patient year, 2006
ESRD $61,164
Hemodialysis $71,889
Peritoneal dialysis $53,327
Transplant $24,951

What is has the real reimbursement rates for in-center been over the last 20 years?

I’ll have to look that up when I’m in the office.

What is the mortality rates compared to other countries?

Unfortunately, US dialysis survival does not compare well to other countries, even when you control for age, race, gender, diabetes, other comorbidities, etc. Here’s an abstract from the Dialysis Outcomes and Practice Patterns Study (DOPPS), which is observing thousands of randomly selected patients from randomly selected clinics in the US, Japan, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and Europe. This analysis was of the US, Japan, and Europe. You can download the full-length article for free when you follow this link and click the “Full text FREE” box: Association of comorbid conditions and mortality in hemodialysis patients in Europe, Japan, and the United States: the Dialysis Outcomes and Practice Patterns Study (DOPPS) - PubMed

J Am Soc Nephrol. 2003 Dec;14(12):3270-7.

Association of comorbid conditions and mortality in hemodialysis patients in Europe, Japan, and the United States: the Dialysis Outcomes and Practice Patterns Study (DOPPS).

Goodkin DA, Bragg-Gresham JL, Koenig KG, Wolfe RA, Akiba T, Andreucci VE, Saito A, Rayner HC, Kurokawa K, Port FK, Held PJ, Young EW.

Mortality rates among hemodialysis patients vary greatly across regions. Representative databases containing extensive profiles of patient characteristics and outcomes are lacking. The Dialysis Outcomes and Practice Patterns Study (DOPPS) is a prospective, observational study of representative samples of hemodialysis patients in France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Spain, the United Kingdom, and the United States (US) that captures extensive data relating to patient characteristics, prescriptions, laboratory values, practice patterns, and outcomes. This report describes the case-mix features and mortality among 16,720 patients followed up to 5 yr. The crude 1-yr mortality rates were 6.6% in Japan, 15.6% in Europe, and 21.7% in the US. After adjusting for age, gender, race, and 25 comorbid conditions, the relative risk (RR) of mortality was 2.84 (P < 0.0001) for Europe compared with Japan (reference group) and was 3.78 (P < 0.0001) for the US compared with Japan. The adjusted RR of mortality for the US versus Europe was 1.33 (P < 0.0001). For most comorbid diseases, prevalence was highest in the US, where the mean age (60.5 +/- 15.5 yr) was also highest. Older age and comorbidities were associated with increased risk of death (except for hypertension, which carried a multivariate RR of mortality of 0.74 [P < 0.0001]). Variability in demographic and comorbid conditions (as identified by dialysis facilities) explains only part of the differences in mortality between dialysis centers, both for comparisons made across continents and within the US. Adjustments for the observed variability will allow study of association between practice patterns and outcomes.


In an environment where the kidney patient is competing with people who want houses or free college educations, etc. do you think that alternatives such as nocturnal hemo will be allowed?

In any sane system, where the incentives are aligned such that less costly care that also leads to better outcomes is encouraged, then YES, I absolutely think that alternatives such as nocturnal hemo will not only be allowed, but actually preferentially treated. Standard, 3x/week in-center HD should be the treatment of LAST resort.

I think it helps to know how/why Medicare’s fundamental flaw came to be - from my blog, posted on 11/24
Wilber Mills’ three layer cake of health insurance: Part A, Part B and Medicaid

Where did the Part A/Part B framework of Medicare come from? I’m reading Tom Daschle’s book Critical: What We Can Do About the Health-Care Crisis, which starts with the sort of tragic health care failure vignettes a US Senator must hear on a daily basis. The next section of the book covers the political history of health care and health care insurance in the US. Daschle reflects that:
I made some progress on health care during my 26 years on Capitol Hill, but the successes were incremental ones, and frankly they were outweighed by failures. (page 45, Critical).
Indeed, for a litany of reasons beyond the power of a Senator to change, health care successes have been few in the history of the US, if by success we mean federal legislative efforts to bring some sense to a health care system that has always seemed chaotic and arbitrary. The point this all leads to is that we have a system that produces health care failures on a daily basis, it is these failures the new Obama administration with Tom Daschle at the head of DHHS, hopes to address but Daschle acknowledges health care is a tough nut to crack. However, Daschle writes that in the '60s before his time there was a major legislative success - the implementation of Medicare and Medicaid.

The Birth of Part A and Part B
There were three health care bills floating around the new Congress after the Johnson electoral landslide of 1964. H.R. 1, the King-Anderson bill would create a program of compulsory hospital insurance, financed by payroll taxes (as opposed to a needs based program financed by general tax receipts). According to Daschle, lobbyist for Aetna (the insurance giant) worked through Rep. Byrnes, the senior Republican on the House Ways and Means Committee, to introduce “Better-care” which created a noncompulsory health insurance program that would cover both hospital and out of hospital care, financed by government subsidized premiums. And a third American Medical Association (AMA) sponsored bill dubbed “Elder-care” a coverage scheme that Daschle describes as “a slightly expanded version of Kerr-Mills [a need based proposal that did not get through the previous Congress] that would help states pay the health insurance costs of the elderly poor.”

Daschle writes that it was a surprise to President Johnson that Mills:
combined all three proposals into a single bill, his “three layer cake.” Medicare Part A, the first layer, would pay for hospital care, skilled nursing for a limited time, and some home health care. Part B, which was optional, would cover the cost of doctor’s visits. And Medicaid, a separate program, was created to help states finance not just long-term care for poor seniors but health-care coverage for other vulnerable Americans like single-parent families and people with disabilities. (page 62, Critical (my emphasis))
This strategy based on insurance was a purely political maneuver devised to get legislation through the Congress in the face of opposition from the AMA, business groups and insurers, among others. Daschle writes that the three layer cake approach was a surprise to Johnson but in Sue A. Blevins’ book Medicare’s Midlife Crisis, Blevins looks at primary sources to find that the three layer cake approach was orchestrated by the consummate Congressional deal maker President Johnson:
Blevins makes an important contribution as a result of her examination of internal White House documents stored in the Lyndon Baines Johnson Library. Using previously unpublicized White House memos, she shows that long-standing claims that President Johnson did not know of Representative Mills’s plan to combine these three bills were false, indeed that Johnson knew of Mills’s plan more than a year in advance. This point is critical because it confirms the deliberateness of the political strategies involved.
I think this explains the Part A, Part B, Medicaid approach. It never pretended to be a thoughtful approach to providing health care, rather it was the result of political necessity. In the end this construct can be deemed a success because it allowed legislation to pass that finally addressed some of some big, hard to address problems.

Health Insurance vs. Health Care
You can think of Mills’ three layer cake as a decision tree, with branches at certain binary choices. The first branch takes place between Medicare and Medicaid, a division based on need. Medicaid is means tested Medicare is not. If you are in the Medicaid side then your health care comes through Medicaid regardless of what the health care is for, or where it is provided. The only questions left to answer is: is a procedure covered and does a provider accept Medicaid payment?

On the Medicare branch there is a second binary choice based largely on where the care is provided. In the hospital, Part A or outside a hospital, Part B. Part A is compulsory, Part B is optional. Access to both is mostly based on age (disability generally and severe kidney disease specifically being notable exceptions) and access requires a work history of paying Medicare payroll taxes - neither Part A or Part B is means tested.

Medicare/Medicaid is a health insurance system, it does not really get at the question of health care. Indeed reading the vignettes in the first part of Critical it seems Daschle sees the health care problem as a health insurance problem. That is not how I see the problems we face. When I complain about the way dialysis is provided under Medicare Part B or the disconnect in chronic kidney disease between Part A and Part B, I’m not describing an insurance problem, I’m describing a health care problem. I’m saying reimbursement is creating inefficient and/or dangerously ineffective chronic kidney disease (CKD) care. The structure of the system is creating problems in the delivery of care. The structure of federal health insurance is leading to sub optimal health care.

A Better Three Layer Cake
Today Mills’ plan looks more like three separate cakes rather than each a piece of an integrated whole. The divisions look rigid and linear. Dividing up the problem needs to be done in a more flexible way so that each sub group can access any part of the healthcare system and costs can be managed based on the total cost to the system. Rather than dividing up the problem on the basis of insurance and location of care, a better approach would be to divide the problem up on the basis of diagnosis. A three layer Cake of health care would divide the problem into Chronic health care, Acute health care and Preventive health care. The CAP Cake of health care.

Health care with a beginning and an end - acute health care - is very different from the ongoing grind of chronic health care. And both are not at all like preventive health care. The CAP Cake decision tree would start with preventive health care.

If the health care in question is in the interest of the entire health system and is not based on a specific diagnosis or individual problem, then it is preventive health care. Preventive health care should be widely available and encouraged i.e. free CKD screening should be widely available to all Americans with directed efforts to screen at risk groups. Much can be done if CKD is identified early … the kidney is a window into the vascular system; catching problems early maximizes the impact of lifestyle changes; routine drug regimes e.g. blood pressure control, diabetes management. Preventive health care saves money as it saves human misery - we need a return to government funded public health and make it the purview of Medicaid.

The next branch of the CAP Cake would be on the non-preventive branch between chronic and acute diseases. Both involve health care specific to an individual but they are very different. Our existing acute care model, the part A side, is based on diagnosis-related groups or DRGs. Hospitals/doctors identify which basket of health care you need (which DRG) and once the right DRG is provided it should conclude with you not needing additional health care.

Chronic health care is different, the Part B side is different. With chronic disease the need for health care doesn’t end after the appointment. The role of the ill is different too. Chronic health care works best with the active participation of the ill individual while acute health care can be successful with the passive participation of the ill. It is chronic health care that is failed by the current system and it is this chronic health care failure that feeds the demand for Part A services.

To look at the three layer health care cake through the lens of insurance, the CAP cake would make compulsory and universal acute health care coverage (the new Part A). Part A care could be provided anywhere - hospitals, doctor offices or urgent care facilities - under a DRG payment scheme. Government chronic health care insurance would be widely available and subsidized but remain optional (the new Part B). Part B care would span time and venue, the goal would be health care intended to help people live the lives they were meant to live. Neither Part A or Part B would be needs based but the poor would have their Part B participation paid/subsidized but how their participation was funded would not result in differences in access to care and would not rely on employment.

It is effective and efficient health care for chronic disease that is most in need of change, while preventive health care is missing from the current health insurance system. This is a separate problem from who pays for what. Do we have a health insurance problem or a health care problem? From the sharp end of the needle it looks like a health care problem. We need a health care solution rather than another health insurance solution.

So if I understand your numbers Medicare pays for about 2/3rd of the total dialysis bill. I believe the real reimbursement rates have pretty much gone down a lot for hd. CMS is now quibbling over drug expenses, trying to squeeze out some more money from the providers. (But I know you’re checking on the actual numbers)

So one conclusion could be the government pays for most of dialysis (and is under strict cost controls) and kidney patients fair poorly.

As I pointed out the WHO ranking for DALE is 24 for the US vs. 14 for the UK. My point was that the US is dragged down to 37 because of the “fairness” measure…and it is this measure that makes for a circular argument, namely, the US needs a more progressive system because we are 37th in the world in health care systems on a set of measures that include the progressiveness of the healthcare system.

Actually I’m not sure how much we can read into country level statistics. For example, Japan is rates highly in life expectancy…but the Japanese love to smoke (44% vs. 26% for the US)…so inferences about the cause of the differences in life expectancy should treated carefully.

Same for infant mortality. I think the US has more and earlier premies than other countries.

Getting back to kidney people you say

You are making the fundamental assumption that slow nocturnal HD costs more than standard in-center care. In fact, it costs less–and it leads to more quality-adjusted life years when you include the total costs of care (medications, hospitalization, staffing, supplies…)

Unfortunately the url is subscription. I would certainly be interest if you could give more info.

My understanding is that several studies have indicated such, but that the NIH is doing a clinical trial to assess.

From Brent Miller (a nephrologist)

In the end, the argument over the provision of daily home hemodialysis comes down to three issues: money, politics, and technology. The economic portion is rather clear: providing a service six times a week rather than three and implementing new technology in a patient’s home is more expensive. And if patients do live longer as a result of home dialysis, they would be on dialysis longer and thereby increase costs. The monetary savings in other areas such as medications or hospitalizations may or may not cover the added expense.

He goes on to say that the labor costs will probably go up in in-center HD, and that the equipment costs will go down for home HD.

Honestly, I wish I could say that it is a clean shot for Medicare (or other nationalize health service) to provide an expensive alternative, but I don’t think it is.

But I’m happy to be proven wrong.

Here chew on this one:
http://www.crd.york.ac.uk/CRDWeb/ShowRecord.asp?View=Full&ID=22004000516

Thank you for the link. Very interesting summary. Although I found this a little odd/counterintuitive:


Hospitalization rates were 0.49/patient-year in the daily HD group, 0.95/patient-year in the nocturnal HD group, and 0.93/patient-year in the conventional HD group.

This no doubt was a factor in this:


The estimated annual costs were Can$63,700 for daily HD, Can$74,400 for nocturnal HD, and Can$72,700 for conventional HD.

Basically, a small study. The green eye-shade people would definitely like the part about home dialysis costing less over time.

So a couple of questions.

US Medicare does not cover daily HD…is that right?

I assume we are still awaiting results from the NIH/CMS study outlined here:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/566507

Here’s a clue on the future of national healthcare. The following was posted in 2003 on Renal Web, and note the April 2001 date:


THE PROPOSED NIH STUDIES
A meeting in April 2001 discussed possible large multicenter trials of daily and nightly dialysis sponsored by NIH and CMS. Because of financial constraints and the difficulties inherent in recruiting patients for such studies, NIH now proposes two limited trials over the next four years to follow several hundred patients on six times a week dialysis for six months. These studies suffer from inadequate funding as CMS will only reimburse for four dialyses weekly. The results are already known from the reports of many small studies and the main new finding will be whether patients will agree to be randomized into such a study. NIH may then undertake a larger and longer study.

The Renal Physicians Association “supports enactment of legislation requiring CMS to immediately provide reimbursement for more frequent dialysis sessions while waiting the results of clinical trials and/or demonstration projects in this area.

Waiting for the results of these trials will delay any reimbursement changes for at least five years. This is unacceptable when the half-life of U.S. dialysis patients is six years.


In my initial post I guess was struggling to understand why Dori seems so interested in going with a national healthcare system model.

We know that Medicare drives kidney treatment. In fact one article I read referenced kidney disease as kind of US model of national health care.

Treatments in other medical fields seem to have advanced at a much greater pace that ESRD over the last 40 years. Now maybe that is because kidney failure is a rather intractable problem and there’s only so much that can be done. Or, maybe it is because the government is locked into a mindset of controlling costs at all cost.

That just maybe that the hardware costs would dramatically come down over the years that vendors produce materials for home/daily HD.

But we just can’t get there because CMS only provides $$ for 4 treatments per week. So in 2009 exactly what is the status of the 2001 proposal?

So maybe this is the secret to Comparative Effectiveness research. Overpromise…but in the end we just can’t afford it because the cost controls limit our ability to even do the research.

So, again I ask…why do people in Home dialysis want to go this route?