Moving the discussion on bone disease to a new topic. Kidney patients have serious issues with bone disease and often nephrologists are not forthcoming with preventative education unless we know the questions to ask. Hopefully, this thread can serve to identify problems and solutions and provide a basis with which to discuss same with our nephrologists.
Jane
Guest
Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 7:43 pm Post subject:
Pierre, I’m glad everytime you pipe up with how good nocturnal dialysis is. There have been a few patients who said they didn’t feel that much better ( not sure if they were SDD or SND) and the thought has crossed my mind whether I will be like them or be one of the fortunate ones who feels tremendously better. It must be incredible to stop feeling like a yo-yo and have your life back. I have wondered if anyone doing nocturnal txs finds an improvement in muscle/bone problems in addition to improved energy/nutrition?
Back to top
Beth Witten MSW ACSW
Joined: 25 Jun 2004
Posts: 525
Location: Kansas
Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:48 pm Post subject:
You might want to read this brief summary of the benefits of nocturnal and short daily dialysis, including better control of bone disease, blood pressure, and heart problems in the U.S. and other countries:
http://www.hdcn.com/ch/dailyhd/content/blagg1.htm
Beth Witten MSW ACSW LSCSW
Medical Education Institute, Inc.
Back to top
Jane
Guest
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:42 am Post subject:
Thank you for the article, Beth. Can someone interpret the following from article?..specifically the part about “biopsies showed low turnover in 13 of 17 patients, but bone mass was normal in all but three of them…Oversupression of PTH may be an issue, but a high dialysate calcium is necessary to maintain or improve bone density.”:
Quote:
When nocturnal dialysis was first done, serial studies showed a decline in bone density and so dialysate calcium was then increased to 3.0 or 3.5 mEq/L or patients added calcium to the acid concentrate. With this, PTH levels were easily suppressed, and no new or increased arterial or soft tissue calcification was seen on annual soft tissue X-rays. Bone biopsies showed low turnover in 13 of 17 patients, but bone mass was normal in all but three of them. Three patients had hyperparathyroid bone disease and one had a mild lesion. Oversuppression of PTH may be an issue, but a high dialysate calcium is necessary to maintain or improve bone density.
Back to top
Heather
Guest
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:00 am Post subject:
Does anyone know how HRT (hormone replacement therapy) enters the picture for post menapausal female patients and elderly male patients? What meds or natural substances can they take with kdiney disease?
Back to top
Beth Witten MSW ACSW
Joined: 25 Jun 2004
Posts: 525
Location: Kansas
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:20 am Post subject:
The National Kidney Foundation’s K/DOQI guideline on cardiovascular diseases discusses use of HRT in women and the controversy surrounding it in light of the Women’s Health Initiative study. The conclusion of this research-based guideline states:
Given the lack of data from the CKD population, it may be prudent to follow the recently published guidelines from North American Menopause Society, which state that the treatment of menopause symptoms remains the primary indication for HRT, and that HRT not be used solely for primary or secondary prevention of CHD.728 For those women with CKD on HRT, doses of estrogen replacement that are 50%-70% lower than those among women with normal renal function would have an equivalent effect.
http://www.kidney.org/professionals/kdoqi/guidelines_cvd/menopause.htm
Men on dialysis who have low levels of testosterone in their blood by blood test may be provided testosterone by their doctors to improve their sexual functioning.
You might want to read the module on sexuality in Kidney School at http://www.kidneyschool.org. It discusses the use of hormones in women and men.
Beth Witten MSW ACSW LSCSW
Medical Education Institute, Inc.
Back to top
Dori Schatell
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 235
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:55 pm Post subject:
Hi y’all,
Jane wondered about:
Quote:
"biopsies showed low turnover in 13 of 17 patients, but bone mass was normal in all but three of them…
Keeping in mind that I’m not a doctor, I believe this means that nocturnal home hemo was suppressing PTH so much that it actually leans in the direction of oversuppressing PTH, leading to low bone turnover. So far, this hadn’t caused a clinical problem in most patients, since their bone mass was still normal. The risk would seem to be that over time, more bone suppression could occur, perhaps to the point where fractures became more likely. I believe that it’s possible to treat oversuppression by giving synthetic PTH, but I’m not sure.
In most people on in-center hemo, the opposite problem occurs–it’s impossible to shut off the parathyroid glands, so you end up with high turnover bone disease. This is treated with Vitamin D analogs (Zemplar, Hectorol), phosphate binders, and Amgen’s new drug which makes the parathyroid glands more sensitive to calcium–Cinacalcet. If these treatments don’t work, surgery is needed to remove the parathyroid glands.
Back to top
Pierre
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 481
Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 6:54 am Post subject:
As I understand it, it’s not so much anything to do with the parathyroids themselves as it is the fine balance between how calcium, phosphorus and PTH work together. I’m not sure I understand the whole thing, but basically…
In daily nocturnal, because of the length of the treatment, you are removing more phosphorus than any other dialysis method, but you are also removing more calcium. So, initially, calcium is added to the dialysate so less calcium will be removed. Removing too much calcium would obviously be detrimental to bone density over time. To keep tabs on this, the nephrologist looks at both calcium and PTH (intact PTH test is done periodically - seems to be every 6 months in my case). Deliberately making calcium higher also seems to make PTH higher. They look at the balance to determine if added calcium is needed or not. In my case, while I started out the first 6 months adding calcium, I don’t at present (though I continue to add phosphorus to my dialysate, otherwise my phosphorus level would definitely be too low).
Now, what that article seems to be saying is that in some cases, it may be necessary to supplement calcium in the dialysate even at the price of elevated PTH.
This is a good example of one of the many things about daily dialysis (both short and long) which we don’t really know in terms of how it will work out for the patient in the long term. There are many assumptions, but very few clinically-proven things. There have been many observations, but almost no randomized trials. Even observational studies are not that reliable, simply because there haven’t been enough patients to study for a long enough period of time. It’s also difficult to randomize and to double blind in the context of dialysis. All of us on daily hemodialysis are living out one long experiment, even though we already know there are lifestyle and health advantages, and we know it can’t be worse than what inadequate dialysis can do to us. We do have some fairly good observational evidence from the program in Toronto though, simply because it has been running for over a decade now.
Pierre
Back to top
Jane
Guest
Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:10 am Post subject:
Dori writes:
Quote:
The risk would seem to be that over time, more bone suppression could occur, perhaps to the point where fractures became more likely. I believe that it’s possible to treat oversuppression by giving synthetic PTH, but I’m not sure.
This is scary. Of course, it happens with in-center hemo, too. I read an article that stated that about 50-60% of hemo patients have had their PTH oversuppressed making them adynamic. Doctors have told me the problem is they are not sure what levels are in the best balance for dialysis patients. I am not clear on once the damage is done if it is reversable? Does synthetic PTH have another name…have not heard of this? I would love to know if an expert in this area could shed more light on the subject. Anyone know how experts are located?
Dori writes:
Quote:
Amgen’s new drug which makes the parathyroid glands more sensitive to calcium–Cinacalcet.
How does making PTH more sensitive to calcium lower PTH?
Back to top
Heather
Guest
Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:19 pm Post subject:
KDOQI:
Quote:
The use of HRT in the general population has become increasingly controversial. Reports from the WHI have documented significant reductions in hip fracture and colorectal cancer rates among postmenopausal women treated with HRT.724 Although estrogens have been reported to improve the lipid profile by increasing high-density lipoprotein and decreasing low density lipoprotein,725 the WHI did not find an overall benefit among those receiving both estrogen and progesterone.724 In addition, studies have demonstrated an increased risk of venous thrombosis among women who use estrogen.724,725 Patients with CKD have an increased risk for pulmonary embolus and are at risk for vascular access thrombosis. The association between HRT and venous thrombosis, particularly vascular access thrombosis, among women with CKD remains unstudied.
This is the section that speaks to bone fractures, but can someone interpret?
Back to top
Jane
Guest
Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:46 pm Post subject:
I came across the following discussion on the net:
debbie
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 15
Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 5:00 pm Post subject: bone pain
Hi,<
> I can’t walk sometimes because my joints and bones are so painful, it makes no difference what I do, it evens hurts to lie or sit as well. It has been worse in the last 18 months or so. I have had a parathyroidectomy as well and wonder if that contributed…
Back to top
Founding RN
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 172
Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 1:04 pm Post subject: Debbie
I wish this wasn’t so common among dialysis patients, but it is. This problem is because in order for the body to get rid of phosphorus it has to bind with calcium to be excreted from the body. If there isn’t enough in your blood, then it robs your bones. And if your phosphorus is too high, then you itch! That is why it is so important to take those binders! Vit D analogs like Calcitriol, Zemplar and now Hectorol, help to control this along with your PTH levels. But for some patients there comes a time when even these meds don’t work and the PTH gets out of control, it makes all this even worse and a partial or even a total parathyroidectomy is the only solution. <
><
>Please consult with your Dr. about this problem and solutions that are tailored to your particular needs. Make sure that you are taking an adequate amount of calcium and make sure you take those binders. Your Calcium levels need to be monitored so they don’t get too high. Your dietician can help with calcium and phosphorus in your diet.
Back to top
patient
Joined: 30 Oct 2002
Posts: 138
Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 4:47 pm Post subject: bones and joints
Do you mean that all dilaysis patients will have these problems after years of dialysis and will eventually need a para., or only if everything is not managed properly?
Back to top
Founding RN
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 172
Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 7:55 pm Post subject: Patient
Yes, all dialysis patients have varing degrees of osteoporosis, some worse than others. Being inconsistant with your binders and diet just speeds up the problems for many patients. And yes, the longer you are on dialysis, the more your chances of having bone and joint problems like this seem to increase. I wish it wasn’t so, but it is. That is why staff are always telling patients to take those binders and watch their phos. intake. <
>By doing your part to take care of yourself, you can help minimize this problem and keep major problems at bay.<
><
>It is another good reason to keep yourself healthy and try to go for a transplant.
Back to top
patient
Joined: 30 Oct 2002
Posts: 138
Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 11:38 am Post subject: bones and joints
It makes me sad that I’ve been on dialysis all this time and none of my staff have educated me about this. Of course I know to take my binders and what it could cause if I didn’t. But I feel betrayed that I haven’t been told the full truth of my condition…just one more thing I’m kept in the dark about. I really dislike that about the medical profession. Are there any other long term affects from dialysis and after how many years do they occur?<
><
>How does transplant make for better bones and joints? Aren’t the immunosuppressant drugs hard on the body in other ways? I’ve heard of patients needing hip replacements after transplants.
Back to top
Founding RN
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 172
Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 1:06 pm Post subject: Patient
Other complications really depend on what caused the renal failure in the first place and each individuals health and response to their co-morbids. For example, diabetic patients are more likely to develop circulatory problems and their blood vessels to become
ittle. They also become more susceptible to infections that usually result in amputations. <
><
>As for the staff not educating, I suspect that most of them were not even educated themselves about all this. <
><
>Transplant drugs have vastly improved in the years I have been in dialysis. As I have not worked in the transplant field, I can’t give you detailed answers. Your Dr should be able to help you in that area better than I can. But by getting a transplant, your kidney does act like your old one did, making the hormones needed to regulate your bodys functions, like BP, making red blood cells, etc. <
>As for hip transplants, this is usually from being on dialysis for years and the damage from osteoporosis from the renal failure.
Back to top
Back to top
Heather
Guest
Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:39 am Post subject: osteoporosis
Public release date: 9-Mar-2006
[ Print Article | E-mail Article | Close Window ]
Contact: Christopher James
christopher.james@nyu.edu
212-998-6876
New York University
New study reveals promising osteoporosis treatment
Calcium phosphate-based supplement improves bone strength and thickness
A New York University College of Dentistry professor has developed a calcium phosphate-based supplement that – even at low concentrations – significantly improves bone strength and thickness without the side effects of many current drug treatments. Dr. Racquel Z. LeGeros, a Professor of Biomaterials and Biomimetics and of Implant Dentistry, presented her research on the supplement at the American Association for Dental Research annual meeting on March 9, 2006.
Current FDA-approved pharmaceutical-based osteoporosis treatments, such as bisphosphonate drugs and hormone therapies, do not effectively repair bone that has already been lost. In fact, bisphosphonates have been shown to actually inhibit bone redevelopment. Many of these treatments also have serious side effects, including increasing the risk of heart disease, strokes, and breast cancer.
But the supplement Dr. LeGeros developed by combining magnesium (Mg), zinc (Zn), and fluoride (F) ions in a calcium-phosphate (CaP) matrix does not have the side effects of the current pharmaceutical-based treatments. Perhaps more importantly, a Mg/Zn/F-CaP supplement would be inexpensive to produce and would not require FDA approval. Dr. LeGeros’ formulation could be available to market as an over-the-counter supplement, pending patent approval.
In her study, Dr. LeGeros investigated the effect in rats of Mg/Zn/F-CaP ion combinations on several bone properties: strength, thickness, quality, and composition of bones.
Dr. LeGeros divided a sample of 72 (36 males, 36 females) adult Sprague-Dawley rats (average weight, 160g) into six groups receiving the following diets: control; mineral deficiency-induced osteoporosis (MD); MD supplemented with Mg-CaP; Zn-CaP; F-CaP; and Mg/Zn/F-CaP. Each supplement was 0.6% of the MD diet. The post-mortem examination of the femurs in the MD Mg/Zn/F-CaP group showed that even this small amount of Mg/Zn/F-CaP supplement substantially improved bone strength and thickness. More studies will be needed, ultimately using human trials to confirm the results.
Dr. LeGeros’ paper, Effect of Mg/Zn/F-CaP Supplements on Bone Properties: Phase 1, describes initial results of her research, which is funded by a four-year, $2 million grant from the National Institute of Biomedical Imaging and Bioengineering of the National Institutes of Health.
Osteoporosis is a silent, progressive, and debilitating disease characterized by bone loss and the thinning of cortical bone leading to bone fracture. In the United States, the disease affects an estimated 10 million older adults, resulting in more than 1.5 million fractures annually; the overwhelming majority of those afflicted with osteoporosis (80%) are women.
Dr. LeGeros said future research may also focus on using Mg/Zn/F-CaP compounds to repair fractures and periodontal bone defects.
For more information or to schedule an interview with Dr. LeGeros, please contact Christopher James, 212.998.6876 or christopher.james@nyu.edu
Back to top